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Handling dia wall vs hellfire

Discussion in 'Strategies' started by Name368, Sep 16, 2018.

  1. Name368

    Name368 Donators
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    How do you guys handle dia wall vs hellfire attack? lets say vamp has cloak and/or we dont have damage.
    1. detonating fire spawns and spamming furbs? if so, how many deto?
    2. spamming super tower builders?
     
  2. 1010.

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    1. get upgraded diamond with armor 2. (200 armor)
    2. don't use engineers right away, hf is weak for the first minute and a half. Use just human and the occasional super.
    3. start spamming comets when you get 125k. not very hard with 3-6 firespawns.
    4. once the human alone (with the occasional help from super worker) is not enough to reach equilibrium on the wall health, use engineers.
    5. keep spamming comets. if done correctly you should have 5+ comets by the time ultimate is needed (if needed at all, if vampire doesn't have underworld and is unable to spam heals constantly then it is likely you won't even need to ult).
    6. if you had to use ult to get him to leave, keep building comets.

    if these steps are followed correctly, you will have 100% winrate regarding cloak,hf vs diamond
     
  3. Noobrage

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    Why spam 5 comets when u could simply oracle by then huehue
     
  4. theHUMANhunter

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    by the time you reach that lo, the comets will deal many hits.
     
  5. seofl

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    Just deto your wall to show him how alpha you are and he'll be to scared to attack you.
    On a side note, preparation is key. If the vamp killed a base recently, or the income timer is near, make sure you save up a bit of wood so you can start getting damage immediately.
     
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  6. Name368

    Name368 Donators
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    Thank you guys for the tips, however my main question was not yet answered - whether to deny fire spawns and spam furbs or spam super tower builders.

    Im asking this because its most common scenario. Lets say its 35-40th min, last 2 humans remaining, when im attacked, i spend all gold/wood to dia, wall is upgrading so now how to hold it? Lets say i was greedy and i dont have any comet yet, with 0 wood next comet coming in +-1 minute but still 1 comet is not enough... so now i would like to know what do you prefer and why, whether to spam furbs or super tower builders.
     
  7. seofl

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    Well you have 2 possible routes after engineers run out, furb spam and super tower builder spam. Furb spam is cheaper and you feed less while elf spam saves you gold (because you don't have to deto your fire) but is a lot more expensive and feed 10 more g per builder. For me it's usually super tower builder if i am ahead on gold and have some wood to spare, while furbs when i can't spare enough gold/wood. I also like going super tower builder while my engineers are still up, and switch to furbs when they run out. As far as detoing fires you want to deto 3 at least, that's enough for 6 furbs.
     
  8. Rugarus

    Rugarus Firespawn Deforester
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    If there's two vampires at your wall you'll need at least 1-2 comet towers to keep him away from your wall. Otherwise you'll have both vamps double chaining your furbolgs.

    I always go oracle instead of comet spam. I find it's always the safest choice especially if the vampire will end up getting a POTU upgrade. The only good thing comet towers have is their cripple ability (R)
    If you're good with micro, having 4-5 comet towers can be great if you cycle thru their cripple abilities one by one. But I have always found mini oracle is the safest and long-term investment. The only time I wont go for it is if vampire started attacking me when I was on ruby wall upgrading to diamond and I have 0 cash. But if you're 200k+ always go for oracle.

    But first of all, before you get any sort of damage. Always get diamond wall with full armor (245 is the max without BOO)

    Wait until your wall hits 1/4 hp from hellfire stacks and then spawn engineers. If you have engineers, stacks are low or his stacks reset. Use this time to spam out as many fire spawns as you can. Always use that time to max your wood economy to get oracle faster.

    Also use furbolgs instead of super tower builders. When your wall is falling from stacks, spam as many furbolgs as you need and keep that wall alive. Avoid using your ULT at all costs unless absolutely needed. If the diamond wall was fully upgraded before the attack if it's only one vampire attacking you usually wont need to use it at all. But regarding furbolg vs super tower spam. I've done the math and it's more cost efficient to detonate a few fire spawns and make furbolgs. (Unless it's gold you need, but most of the time you just need lumber when saving for an oracle tower)

    Always build wall towers around the vampire (stops frenchmen, soaks up ring bat damage) Also block the entrance to your base with a feedbox to keep out infernals.

    Here's the latest hellfire attack I was against:

    Even having oracle he was able to tank it for quite a while (If you can see I often will select my comet tower and use it's cripple ability) + Max fire spawns every chance I could. Rico + rings against my healers made it quite difficult.
     
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  9. Noobrage

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    He tanked that because of having the feed of his life. Overall still lo >>> comets.
     
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  10. 1010.

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    you completely missed the point. cripple is the most useless part of comet tower. it only works on vamp's base dmg which will be around 1200-1300 if he has cloak hellfire. that means he might lose a few hundred points in dmg which is useless. it also doesnt do anything to attack speed.

    mathematically, 1 lo is equivalent to 16 comets but because of how attack speed mechanics work, it is closer to 14 comets. you can think of 1 comet as 1/14*lo. so 1 comet does about 4.5 oracle hits/minute. as you build more comets/minute this function approaches the damage of the lo. Therefore, we can look at it as (4.5 + 9 + 13.5 + 18 + 22.5+...+n). This means that if vamp can survive for more 62 seconds then it is more efficient to build oracle, otherwise comets are far better.

    Since the point of this thread was what if the vamp has cloak hellfire (implying no underworld) , it can be stated that spamming comets is superior to waiting for oracle if the vamp can stay at your wall for <1 minute after you have made oracle. if the vamp has underworld as well, then you def want to wait for lo because if you spam comets, he will be able to heal a lot more as he has a bigger time frame.

    so overall no, comets > lo.
     
  11. Rugarus

    Rugarus Firespawn Deforester
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    Cripple is a percentage of outgoing damage before armor modifiers and armor types. This includes all output of damage (Items/spell damage)
    It also affects attack speed. Google the ability if you want it will list it's features. However going oracle vs comet tower is my preference I'm not saying either one is better. But we all know diamond wall cannot be defeated by one vampire alone (not easily) and oracle is the best long term investment. At least I haven't lost to a hellfire attack in ages and I always go oracle tower.
     
  12. Double D.

    Double D. The guy with 2 Ds who loves Juke & Pedram + WW
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    Cripple does not affect demonic damage, stop spreading misinformation we've discussed over this!!! :angry:
    I don't know what to say about hellfire but all bonus damage from items / scroll of the beast will not be affected by cripple, only the base damage is lowered.

    Also Attack speed has a cap (~400% AS), so if you get 475% AS from agility, cripple will lower it by 75% down to 400%, still being at the max speed. :(
     
  13. Rugarus

    Rugarus Firespawn Deforester
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    Like I said before I posted on hive and they all said that it works based on all output damage.
     
  14. Double D.

    Double D. The guy with 2 Ds who loves Juke & Pedram + WW
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    upload_2018-9-20_18-27-6.png is not a certain answer that proves cripple affects item damage
    1 - it's a single answer, not multiple
    2 - it's a "i believe" answer
    I've tested it and I've shown you the replay + maths, I've attached the replay and showing my test notes for anyone interested:
    HP evolution: 46941-46581-46232-45881-45524 no cripple
    HP evolution: 46353-46027-45701-45372-45052 cripple
    damage without cripple: 360,349,351,357 ; 354 average, 63 base, 291 bonus
    damage with cripple: 326,326,329,320 ; 325 average,
    527 base dmg, 2250 bonus dmg
    19% base, 81% bonus
     

    Attached Files:

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  15. Rugarus

    Rugarus Firespawn Deforester
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    I asked others in PM which is why I meant others. Unless they are all wrong but they had a lot of rep points.
     
  16. Double D.

    Double D. The guy with 2 Ds who loves Juke & Pedram + WW
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    Well have you tested it personally?
     
  17. Rugarus

    Rugarus Firespawn Deforester
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    Nah the new blizzard patch fucked the compiler I was using for attaching the scripts to the map otherwise I would test it right now.

    I swear I've noticed it on diamond wall when I used cripple the HP looked like it climbed for a while. Anyway if it doesn't work then kinda means oracle is that much better :rolleyes:
     
  18. Double D.

    Double D. The guy with 2 Ds who loves Juke & Pedram + WW
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    I haven't tested it on hellfire myself, it could be that hellfire adds itself to the base damage of the unit and thus is affected by cripple. Item damage such as cloak / scroll / demonics is what I am certain would not be affected by cripple.
     
  19. Rugarus

    Rugarus Firespawn Deforester
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    We could test hellfire, just get a vampire to not upgrade crit strike at all. But ATM I'm just trying to fix the compiler issue.
     
  20. Double D.

    Double D. The guy with 2 Ds who loves Juke & Pedram + WW
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    That would require 35 minutes of waiting! :(